tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post525367208459036650..comments2023-10-05T10:29:39.439+01:00Comments on Catholic Collar And Tie: Latin, Ad Orientem and Problem PriestsAndrewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09049074568745678686noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-26840624054514254812012-12-11T19:38:42.297+00:002012-12-11T19:38:42.297+00:00.
To The Archbishop who commented on this Blog tod....<br />To The Archbishop who commented on this Blog today:<br /><br />Excellency,<br /><br />I received your affirmative comment with much gratitude but have chosen to respect your position and privacy by not posting it on the blog. <br /><br />With prayers for you, yours, and your ministry.<br /><br />Fr DicksonFr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-80091275890190770612012-11-26T14:56:05.944+00:002012-11-26T14:56:05.944+00:00Mariann, many thanks for your comment. How blest ...Mariann, many thanks for your comment. How blest your children have been with your example and the education they have received. I will offer a prayer for you and for them. Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-16262195170256294752012-11-26T14:54:29.916+00:002012-11-26T14:54:29.916+00:00Thanks for your comment Burt, and the length is fi...Thanks for your comment Burt, and the length is fine! Yes, EMHC's are over-used, probably because they came in everywhere almost at once , particularly with the introduction of Holy Communion from the Chalice at so many Masses. As a result of this practice, most priests are simply unaware that EMHC's are for exceptional circumstances only, even good, solid priests such as those with whom your parish is blest. I'm sure I don't need to tell you to affirm, support and pray for them and for many more like them. Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-23657744336924863612012-11-26T13:17:36.482+00:002012-11-26T13:17:36.482+00:00Thank you, Fr. Dickson. Well done. I, unfortunat...Thank you, Fr. Dickson. Well done. I, unfortunately, do not have time to read all posts, so if this is a repeat, please forgive me. My two older children were blessed to attend The Lyceum School for their 10th, 11th and 12th grades. This liberal arts college preparatory school, teaches via the Socratic method using The Great Books. They teach the children Latin (yearly) and Greek (a number of years). The children acquire a profound love and admiration of the Lord through the Latin High Mass (Tridentine?) and a reverence of the Most Holy Sacrament with each Mass. My son, a graduate of The Lyceum, is currently Sacristan at his Catholic College. Educate our children and they will be rooted in the Faith, and we who have lost so very much will be drawn to reverencing and worshiping the Lord as we ought.Mariannnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-76271766552969588972012-11-26T11:10:57.547+00:002012-11-26T11:10:57.547+00:00Thank you for that informative reply Father. I hav...Thank you for that informative reply Father. I have looked up Redemptionis Sacramentum on the Holy See's website. I found this passage regarding EMHC's:<br /><br /> [151.] Only out of true necessity is there to be recourse to the assistance of extraordinary ministers in the celebration of the Liturgy. Such recourse is not intended for the sake of a fuller participation of the laity but rather, by its very nature, is supplementary and provisional.[252] Furthermore, when recourse is had out of necessity to the functions of extraordinary ministers, special urgent prayers of intercession should be multiplied that the Lord may soon send a Priest for the service of the community and raise up an abundance of vocations to sacred Orders.[253]<br /><br />Surely it is because of the widespread practice of Communion under both kinds, nearly all Masses in this Diocese of Clifton have these lay persons up on the altar in the role of EMHC. Even at a weekday Mass with a handful of folks in the congregation they are apparently deemed necessary. But quite why there is this trend for these people to perform the ablutions, which means drinking the Blood of Christ that has remained.It just is something that bothers me. I have never found the Novus Ordo satisfactory as I think it has traduced the Mass drastically of it's quiet eloquence of the fact that Christ deigns to be with us in Person at every True Mass. Having said this I have to tell you that the 2 priests of my parish are both admirable dedicated great priests. They hear Confessions Daily Monday - Saturday, we have daily adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. (that only reveals the lack of consistency in expression of faith while worshipers genuflect on both knees at the sight of the Host in the Monstrance, (even Father does not hold this with his bare hands)so why the gross familiarity of the laity with the Body and Blood of Our Lord at Holy Mass? <br />Sorry for the length of this post.Burthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14333123119242789475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-36218414869623542722012-11-26T10:45:15.869+00:002012-11-26T10:45:15.869+00:00Pooja meena,
Thank you for your comment. We do ho...Pooja meena,<br /><br />Thank you for your comment. We do hope to be informative.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-60546684719141833652012-11-25T14:22:41.061+00:002012-11-25T14:22:41.061+00:00Thanks for your comment. The Missal does not menti...Thanks for your comment. The Missal does not mention EMHC's doing the ablutions, while Redemptionis Sacramentum only mentions clergy. Indults were given by Rome to permit this practice but only for a period of time, but it is my understanding that they have now either run their course or about to complete their course. Since Rome did not renew the Indult for the USA I assume it will not be renewed for the UK either.<br />Shop around for a good liturgy before moving to the SSPX as they seem to be getting further from reconciliation with Peter. I admire their commitment but there are LMS Masses you can attend, and a faithful celebration of the Novus Ordo, while being distasteful to many, does contain the same Saviour, Sacrifice and Sacrament. I think a post on Redemptionis Sacramentum may be in order soon...Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-1897264457818193852012-11-25T10:33:35.725+00:002012-11-25T10:33:35.725+00:00That's great to hear father, I wish more paris...That's great to hear father, I wish more parishes were like yours. I am more and more convinced that the abandonment of traditional practices and the Lutheranization of the Mass, which is what the Novus Ordo is, was a great betrayal at the heart of Catholicism. Nothing good has come from it. Over here in England we have a situation where the so called Extraordinary Ministers, ie laity perform the post Communion ablutions. I can't stand it. Soon I will have to go to SSPX to attend a Mass the I can be assured the Angels in Heaven rejoice to attend in adoration. Burthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14333123119242789475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-25076595946446750962012-11-23T22:53:23.009+00:002012-11-23T22:53:23.009+00:00Thank you very much for your comment. Please God, ...Thank you very much for your comment. Please God, however, I do hope that it came over more as information-giving than correction...Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-12360021799844824132012-11-23T22:50:59.267+00:002012-11-23T22:50:59.267+00:00Thank you for your comment. It is interesting to s...Thank you for your comment. It is interesting to see how many young people from so many places hold to Tradition in the liturgy; the Chartres pilgrimage gives evidence of this. Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-49106179579645003612012-11-23T22:48:24.320+00:002012-11-23T22:48:24.320+00:00I am on the same lines as yourself and Bishop Schn...I am on the same lines as yourself and Bishop Schneider.<br />The reasons why the norms (rubrics) are not followed are probably manifold. I suspect one reason is that facing the Lord with the people is (facing the altar) is seen as clericalism; as "turning from God's people", when in fact it a clear journeying with them in a common direction towards a common goal.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-17725705117248502752012-11-23T21:30:46.355+00:002012-11-23T21:30:46.355+00:00This must be St Joseph Church in Detroit. I've...This must be St Joseph Church in Detroit. I've never been there but always thought that liturgically speaking this is what the Council Fathers had in mind regarding the Novus Ordo as it has been offered at St Joseph Church. ServusMariaeNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13963287463957393931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-34303690520498897902012-11-23T21:28:57.293+00:002012-11-23T21:28:57.293+00:00I assumed the rubrics of the Missal of Paul VI ass...I assumed the rubrics of the Missal of Paul VI assume the Versus Deum/Ad Orientem orientation. I don't understand why this isn't the norm considering the rubrics. How can there ever be a healing of the rupture between the Vetus Ordo and Novus Ordo if the Novus Ordo is not celebrated in continuity with the Vetus Ordo? Bishop Schneider was right when he speaks about the "Five Wounds" in the Catholic liturgy: <br /><br />1. Mass versus populum.<br />2. Communion in the hand.<br />3. The Novus Ordo Offertory prayers.<br />4. Disappearance of Latin in the Ordinary Form.<br />5. Liturgical services of lector and acolyte by women and ministers in lay clothing.<br /><br />BISHOP ATHANASIUS SCHNEIDER:<br /><br />"The five wounds of the Church’s liturgical body I have mentioned are crying out for healing. They represent a rupture that one may compare to the exile in Avignon. The situation of so sharp a break in an expression of the Church’s life is far from unimportant—back then the absence of the popes from Rome, today the visible break between the liturgy before and after the Council. This situation indeed cries out for healing.<br /><br />For this reason we need new saints today, one or several Saint Catherines of Sienna. We need the “vox populi fidelis” demanding the suppression of this liturgical rupture. The tragedy in all of this is that, today as back in the time of the Avignon exile, a great majority of the clergy, especially in its higher ranks, is content with this rupture."<br /><br />http://www.paixliturgique.org.uk/aff_lettre.asp?LET_N_ID=863ServusMariaeNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13963287463957393931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-61528735176020742482012-11-23T15:32:09.100+00:002012-11-23T15:32:09.100+00:00Thank you for the correction, Father. I needed th...Thank you for the correction, Father. I needed that. (I'm not being sarcastic, but sincere.) God bless. -RachelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-8934724492650975852012-11-22T12:06:33.130+00:002012-11-22T12:06:33.130+00:00Thanks for commenting. I too think use of Latin an...Thanks for commenting. I too think use of Latin and ad orientem are key to a correct implementation of vatican II. It will bring the hermeneutic of continuity into the experience of the average Catholic who, if they see liturgy recovering, might more easily take to a recovery of doctrine...Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-16670462062125054092012-11-22T12:03:04.855+00:002012-11-22T12:03:04.855+00:00Thanks for commenting. Yes indeed, we encourage re...Thanks for commenting. Yes indeed, we encourage reception on the tongue while kneeling at all Masses, even the Novus Ordo where about 10% of the congregation do so. Some of our youngsters have received this way ever since their first Communion but some have stopped, and I cannot help but wonder under whose influence:family, school or other priests?Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-38835210592237281862012-11-22T09:25:43.704+00:002012-11-22T09:25:43.704+00:00Father,
It is good to read about your commitment t...Father,<br />It is good to read about your commitment to the use of Latin and the importance of the priest facing the tabernacle. What saddens me most of all since Vatican II is the loss of the practice of receiving Holy Communion on our knees, fed direct by the priest. Do you encourage the traditional way of receiving Communion at your Mass?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-8993778939855332672012-11-22T04:39:57.953+00:002012-11-22T04:39:57.953+00:00Thank you for this wonderful clear explanation, yo...Thank you for this wonderful clear explanation, you have summarized everything I have always thought of the difficulty, with worshiping God during Mass and it took me a long time to see the contradictions in the implementation's after Vatican 11.<br /><br />These corrections are the key to full affirmation of the authentic work of the Council.<br />Richard Hassettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-60543103503902644742012-11-21T21:43:05.324+00:002012-11-21T21:43:05.324+00:00Thanks for this comment. I am sure you are right; ...Thanks for this comment. I am sure you are right; that no Bishop, VG or Dean has the intention of making priests who celebrate ad orientem or use Latin look bad. But I do think there is some mileage in saying that if the senior clergy do not use Latin, ad oreintem etc, they do little to give the hermeneutic of continuity liturgical expression or to show that those priests who do use Latin etc. are not out of step. I have only suggested a few occasions a year, which I do not think is asking too much when they are in fact the norms.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-25460511131436828372012-11-21T21:32:50.494+00:002012-11-21T21:32:50.494+00:00Thanks for your comment. The incident with the Sam...Thanks for your comment. The incident with the Samaritan woman indicates an hour is coming when true worship will be offered; that worship arrived in Christ and the Eucharist, the celebration of which is not, to my mind, to be taken lightly since Christ Himself is Present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist (“He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood lives in Me and I in Him...He who eats Me will draw life from Me” John 6v56-7). Liturgy is at the centre of our identity precisely because the Eucharist is Christ; it is at the centre of our care of the marginalised because that care continues the ministry of Christ. There should never be any opposition between sound liturgy and sound pastoral practice; we should be aiming at the best in both. How we worship reflects what we believe, which directs how we live. Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-52864840856122047642012-11-21T21:23:16.408+00:002012-11-21T21:23:16.408+00:00I couldn’t agree more about the spiritual desert o...I couldn’t agree more about the spiritual desert of the Western World, for it spreads much further than America. But I do not see how being there for those in need is excluded by Tradition. In fact, the Church throughout history has devoted herself to the care of the poor while her Tradition grew: surely it is Christ’s self-sacrifice for us in the Mass which inspires us to self-sacrifice for the good of others? In my time I have worked with many broken families, drug addicted youngsters etc, and do not find any disjunction between this and my preference for things Traditional. The language and the orientation are important in regard to the symbolism they provide (ad-orientem =journeying to God and Latin = one Lord, one Church, one language.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-13271432802610386582012-11-21T21:18:40.987+00:002012-11-21T21:18:40.987+00:00I picked up on your point of being put in a diffic...I picked up on your point of being put in a difficult position when Bishops, VG's etc, do not use Latin or face the altar at least on occasion. I'm sure they don't intend it, but they do make priests like you who use them look like oddities, which hinders acceptance by the people. I support your point that Bishops etc use these things, not only so as to show their faithfulness to the Missal and to Rome, but to show priests like you are not in the wrong.Tibeknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-55608658325566171172012-11-21T20:00:55.475+00:002012-11-21T20:00:55.475+00:00I don't see how this whole debate accords with... I don't see how this whole debate accords with Christ's attitude as expressed to the Samaritan woman in John 4:21-23: " <br />21<br />Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.<br />22<br />You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.i<br />23<br />But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth;* and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him."<br /><br /> We seem to ignore Christ's committment against trivia in worship...by denying that trivia is trivia...thus we get around Him.bill bannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09737277581167437670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-9402248515427239402012-11-21T19:37:13.109+00:002012-11-21T19:37:13.109+00:00Honestly, I don't mind what holy way the Mass ...Honestly, I don't mind what holy way the Mass is offered. However, I think we are burrowing our heads in the sand with this issue. As a young person 17-20 I was quite fanatic about the Latin Mass and other traditions. Then I started working in the read world in my twenties, and let me tell you we have much bigger fish to fry. <br /><br />Yes, we should absolutely encourage a holy Mass. But why are we devoting so much effort to fixing something that we already have the knowledge about? Should we not follow the Beatitudes? I see a massive spiritual desert in America. I think as Catholic's we separate ourselves when we raise families, which is good for keeping children safe. However, are you aware of the massive crisis of broken families and people in this world? I volunteer in an area where I encounter thousands of people, and I don't see the Church much outside of the Church. The amount of domestic abuse, child abuse, drug abuse, etc, and the absence of faith is overwhelming. <br /><br />Is the language in which we offer Mass (or the direction the priest is facing) more important than turning hearts towards Christ, and His True Presence in the Eucharist?<br /><br />I personally got burnt out from my fascination with the language and other intricacies at a younger age, because for me personally it pushed aside what first drew me to Christ -love. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-7175633137011069312012-11-21T18:48:53.830+00:002012-11-21T18:48:53.830+00:00Thanks for the comment and the blessing. I do not ...Thanks for the comment and the blessing. I do not think the Bishop or his clergy have grasped that the EF does not require a Bishops approval; it is the parish pastor who decides if and when it is viable to offer Mass is the EF. <br />By the way, I am not a 'good' priest; God alone is good. I am trying to be loyal in my liturgy and teaching but I remain someone who sincerely asks "pray for me to the Lord our God" during the Confiteor! Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.com