tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post9051865368664120825..comments2023-10-05T10:29:39.439+01:00Comments on Catholic Collar And Tie: The New Translation of the Eucharistic Prayers for Mass with ChildrenAndrewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09049074568745678686noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-63485636742023179222014-05-16T23:59:48.057+01:002014-05-16T23:59:48.057+01:00Thank you David.
Most, but not all, of my commenta...Thank you David.<br />Most, but not all, of my commentators think like me; we are of one mind, I would say. I am simply saying that we must avoid the constant dialogue that turns the Mass into a conversation between priest and people and implies little if any distinction of role. Raising the mind and heart is indispensable; activity and vocals are not.<br />God Bless.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-8854169153894657732014-05-16T23:56:12.318+01:002014-05-16T23:56:12.318+01:00Thank you, Father.
I have said that participation...Thank you, Father.<br />I have said that participation is only internal, but that it is principally internal. Without internal participation the externals are merely rituals; internal participation needs external expression. <br />As for Musican Sacram, yes this was promulgated two years after the Council, but in order to implement its decrees on sacred music. It was prepared by the Concilium (MS #3), whose membership included Annibale Bugnini; the chief architect of Sacrosanctum Concilium. <br />God Bless, and thanks for the linkFr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-88157010456610905262014-05-16T21:28:53.116+01:002014-05-16T21:28:53.116+01:00full active conscious participation is both extern...full active conscious participation is both external and interior....<br /><br />http://paulturner.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/full-conscious.pdf<br /><br />your selection of a source is misleading, you need to go back to the original source not musicam sacram which was not published to after the V2 council.Fr Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-48875980807070083372014-05-16T19:35:01.436+01:002014-05-16T19:35:01.436+01:00Just caught up with this blog Fr Gary. Fr John is ...Just caught up with this blog Fr Gary. Fr John is right when he says that many of your commentators agree with you but I (& I'm sure many others) disagree most fundamentally with Fr John.<br />I wonder several things about Fr John. How old is he? Has he ever attended an Extraordinary Form Mass? Where did he receive his formation? etc, etc<br />The main point I'd like to make is that being a Catholic of a certain age I was brought up as a child attending Sunday Mass with my father (my mother wasn't at that point Catholic). There was a school Mass at 9.30am ATTENDED BY ALL TEACHERS (now there is a novelty) but I attended an early Low Mass &, helped by my Dad, followed the Mass with a child's missal (containing the Mass in Latin & English) & prompted 'sotto voce' by Dad as to what was happening on the altar. The first lesson I learned was that I couldn't see the priest's face because we were all praying to God & not just chatting between ourselves.<br />I have seen & been quite shocked by Children's Liturgy where Mrs So&so marches the children out of Mass to a room where they draw pictures & then come trooping back in (behaving as children do) to the church where they take everyone's attention & read the Lesson in such a way that no-one without the words before them understands.<br />Have you noticed how little reverence is given to the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle? And I don't mean just children but adults & (God forgive them) priests & religious. Doesn't this attitude come from the dumbed down way they were taught? But what excuse does a priest or religious have? I sometimes wonder whether many still believe in the Real Presence. I say this having watched people receive Holy Communion in the hand & 1 priest I read of had to chase a communicant to the church door.<br />Now in Rome (even with Pope Francis) the norm is Communion on the tongue rather than what we saw so often in St Peter's Square a priest distributing the host to various hands being pushed from the crowd David O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023042558615821880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-69767591402324197242014-05-16T10:21:43.417+01:002014-05-16T10:21:43.417+01:00Thank you, Joseph.
I think Fr John is simply expre...Thank you, Joseph.<br />I think Fr John is simply expressing his frustrations with me. I am glad to say that while I may be in a minority at present, it is a minority that is growing and which has the whole of the Church's Tradition behind it.<br />God BlessFr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-59104208780682354412014-05-16T10:19:30.670+01:002014-05-16T10:19:30.670+01:00Dear Father,
I begin by saying the point of sharin...Dear Father,<br />I begin by saying the point of sharing my thoughts is simply that: a sharing. I see the comment function as a forum for the exchange of views. If I or any commentator hold to their point, it can demonstrate commitment rather than arrogance. I suspect we are all committed to the views we hold. <br />As for the EP prayers for children, I can understand that children with learning difficulties may grasp dumbed-down words more easily but I wonder if we achieve anything by dumbing them down? I think a sound explanation of the Mystery of the Mass is the better strategy.<br />The description of active participation as principally internal is not my own but comes from Musicam Sacram. <br />I am pleased you have not witnessed anomalous celebrations, but there is a whole seminary who will likely remember the occasion. <br />I am not criticising every aspect about the contemporary Church or the present pontificate. Indeed I have been keen to note that the problem with Vatican II is some imprecise statements (which are none the less compatible with Tradition) but more so its erroneous application. Most Councils have a following period wherein the pendulum wings back and forth before its teaching settles in the Church: Vatican Council II is no different. <br />As for the present pontificate, you will find I point out worries and concerns that many people are noting while suggesting ways the Holy Father and Rome can avoid accruing such criticism (such as being careful about off-the-cuff remarks which the secular press manipulate, and acting justly and swiftly in the case of the Franciscans of the Immaculate). That said, no priest or Pope is beyond criticism; no saint without flaws and faults. Are we to think of Francis as Faultless? I don’t think even he would claim that for himself.<br />God bless.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-46376050260333966292014-05-15T23:52:07.445+01:002014-05-15T23:52:07.445+01:00I have found them pastorally useful with groups of...I have found them pastorally useful with groups of young children (or adults with learning / intellectual disabilities) who have lower verbal comprehension and attentional abilities. The children's euch prayers therefore assist them in understanding what is being prayed. This has been the experience of many priests I know too. The current translation is aimed at the level of a university educated population with an IQ greater than 120 so not easily comprehensible to the above groups, or in fact most of the mainstream adult population. <br /><br />I do not usually use the acclamations but have no objections to them as such. The roman canon itself was once a succession of prayers separated by 'we ask this through Christ the lord' etc and the congregation would have responded amen before the silent canon became the norm around the 16th century - so I don't see that the acclamations to be particularly untraditional or inappropriate.<br /><br />To be bluntly honest, I find most of your arguments to be spurious and wonder hat is the point in sharing them with a wider audience. Many traditionalist minded catholics would describe a latin mass as 'lovely' or 'great' or based on other subjective preferences, which doesn't have to be interpreted in a way which undermines it's legitimacy. As to your various examples that 'I saw this once', again I don't see that they're particularly relevant to the discussion at hand. I could cite many 'abuses' and things I've heard said about latin masses if I so wanted. It is however accurate that we do all celebrate mass but that does not mean that we are all celebrants - this is a subtle and nuanced difference. Neither would I describe the acclamations during the childrens euch prayers as constant dialogue which is obviously over-statement and exaggeration.<br /><br />Finally in many years of being a priest I have never partook or witnessed the anomalous celebrations of mass that you describe. Your description of active conscious participation as meaning interior participation is also at odds with the expressed wish of the bishops at Vatican II as can be clearly seen if you read the documented debates leading up to the promulgation of SC. Perhaps you would prefer if we return to the silent low mass which was definitely not the intention of the council fathers who proclaimed that the liturgical rites were to comprehensively revised?<br /><br />Finally, can I ask you dear Father what the point of all these blog posts are about? What are they actually meant to achieve, except agreement by a sub-section of people who share your views - thereby massaging your ego. You appear to criticise almost everything about the contemporary church and pontificate on how you believe things should be. In fact you project such an air of arrogant infallibility about these matters and all that you perceive as wrong with the church and wider world than I am surprised you are not Pope rather than a mere lowly parish priest of a rather small parish! I wonder how Pope Francis would describe your views? I could offer some suggestions.Fr Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-75758724264512614032014-05-15T23:24:18.000+01:002014-05-15T23:24:18.000+01:00Father your patience with what I perceive to be th...Father your patience with what I perceive to be the taunts of Father John is exemplary and a great lesson in Christian charity to all your readers. Thank you. Joseph Bracewellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-54185370303161419912014-05-14T10:33:13.862+01:002014-05-14T10:33:13.862+01:00Thank you, Father.
May I ask (genuinely) in what w...Thank you, Father.<br />May I ask (genuinely) in what way the EP’s for children have been pastorally useful? In my estimation they do not teach children or adults that active participation is principally internal but that it is principally external. My experience is that they makes children (and adults) see Mass as a constant dialogue between priest and people rather than a time of prayer focused on speaking and listening to the Lord (prayer being the raising of the mind and heart). Is it not true that Masses described as ‘lovely’ or ‘great’, are those where children have been saying and doing throughout? Indeed, parents expect to see something where everyone has a part, while teachers are afraid of 'leaving people out'. Have we not all met parents who rarely attend school Masses say “I’ll see you at the school Mass because it’s Johnny’s class doing it and he’s reading”? I think we have to say yes. <br />As for neither children nor adults making the mistake of seeing Mass as a concelebration, a seminary Retreat Master told us all to “stretch out our hands at the consecration since we all celebrate the Mass.” This is not fantasy, and I have seen it happen in Masses in the Renewal Movement too (I was very involved with the charismatic renewal in the 80’s). <br />God Bless, Father.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-84214851418480175042014-05-13T23:52:36.814+01:002014-05-13T23:52:36.814+01:00Well Father, the acclamations are optional in the ...Well Father, the acclamations are optional in the childrens euch prayers so if you object to them so strongly you don't need to use them. Same with the euch prayers themselves . I have found them pastorally useful especially for masses with young children during school or class masses. Personally I've never met anyone - child or adult - who mistakenly believed they were concelebrants because they joined in some acclamations. It's pretty obvious to anyone that priest celebrants are the man wearing vestments standing behind the altar. Your arguments appear to be pure fantasy.Fr Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-92004748403091148102014-05-11T22:31:04.216+01:002014-05-11T22:31:04.216+01:00Thank you Paul.
what can I say other than I agree ...Thank you Paul.<br />what can I say other than I agree with you? Indeed, the readings are badly done at times, and printed off on little cards so the children can practice. When Mass is over these card with the word of God are then just tossed in the bin, which teaches them nothing positive and yet we want them to respect and venerate the word of God? Not a chance of that...<br />God bless.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-44492600741163830202014-05-11T22:27:12.237+01:002014-05-11T22:27:12.237+01:00Thank you, seeker.
The idea of using the liturgy o...Thank you, seeker.<br />The idea of using the liturgy of the hours is a great idea! Paraliturgies too I very much favour. After all, the Mass is the most sacred thing on earth: the very re-present-ing on the altar of the Lord’s Death and Resurrection amid the Host of heaven at the parousial supper; it is too holy to mess with, in my opinion. Indeed, its aim is to thank, glorify, propitiate and petition God, not affirm and uplift the emotions of man.<br />God Bless you and yours. Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-62970156183350341832014-05-11T22:13:09.684+01:002014-05-11T22:13:09.684+01:00I think so called childrens Masses are wrong. The ...I think so called childrens Masses are wrong. The notion that thereby the children will make the transition to the 'adult' Mass is silly. The child must be brought up on the adult Mass from the beginning. Otherwise he will see the Mass as something for children rather than something he can grow up to as his religion and faith develop. I can't stand childrens Masses. Where I have to hear the sacred texts pronounced badly by mere children. Sacred worship should be in the hands of mature men who can speak loud and clear. <br />Is this not just another 'fruit' of Vat2. A dumbing down and desacralising of Holy Mass? ?<br />Paul Hellyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12155821750459419187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-641832955811669058.post-55126987219116344332014-05-11T20:48:01.852+01:002014-05-11T20:48:01.852+01:00I agree that the extensive use of special liturgie...I agree that the extensive use of special liturgies for 'children' often has the effect of insulating them from the fullness of the faith, and adult liturgy. It strikes me that the aim of 'participation' in liturgy might be achieved better in the schools if they were for instance to use the morning prayer from the Liturgy of the Hours, rather than the 'assemblies' that can be so vapid. What better for participation than alternate verses between one side of the hall and the other (competive even!), and the teachers spared the joyless task of having to 'prepare' the assembly. Seekernoreply@blogger.com